Horrible sound - nsm prestige 160 (ES II)

Hello,

My NSM Prestige ES 160 (ES II) makes a horrible sound. There is no distortion sound, only music. But the music sounds horrible in a shimmering way. I just changed the rubber rim and it has correct speed (even though it does not sound like it). It sounds like the speed is changing, but it is not. I tried an external tuner to see if that would help. But the same horrible shimmering sound in the external tuner.
So we wonder if it could be something wrong with the needle (pickup) or tonearm.
I wonder if anyone at this forum has experienced the same and can give us some tips.

Sincerely
Stig from Bergen, Norway.

Quote
Bergen Norway
It sounds like the speed is changing, but it is not.

How did you find out ? Fast speed changes (Flutter) cause a Vibrato/frequency modulation in the tone.
Not sure if this is what you mean by "shimmering".
Regards Jürgen

Thanks Jürgen,

No the speed does not change. We count steady 45 rpm. But the sound is as u describe. Vibrato/frequency modulation.

Could there be something wrong in the tonearm (pickup arm)?

Stig B

You cannot figure out speed changes (wow&flutter) by counting. Wow (slow speed changes) can be caused when the record is not centered correctly on the turntable. Flutter (fast speed changes) can be caused by uncentric motor shaft or drive gear. I am not so familiar with the NSM drives, but you may be able to see or "feel" such problems with your finger. There are ways to measure it, but it requires a test record with a constant tone. The pickup or the tonemarm cannot cause wow&flutter.
Best regards Jürgen

Thanks Jürgen,

Will a strobe plate help med? Like this attachment?

No, even if you could find a strobe plate for singles with a big (perfectly centered) hole and see the stripes moving around at speed changes, it doesn`t tell you the reason. More likely, you will see just movement in one direction because your box has no pitch control and the speed is never exactly 45rpm. Not knowing a lot about the issues with this drive, I can only recommend that you play a record and look closely to all rotating parts of the turntable drive to spot some excentric movements / vibrations. Maybe some NSM expert joins in and knows typical issues with this drive causing wow&flutter.
Best gegards Jürgen

hello stig.B
and jurgen .

I have an E120 model and the record carts are similar.
Maybe u can do this ,

To start with, thoroughly clean the motor that moves the mechanism including the motor shafts, which means removing the entire motor (s)
This is a patient job and you will need the service manual if you have not already done this, because there are 4 different rings including a retaining ring that must be put back in the right order for smooth functioning.
The retaining ring can be difficult to remove if you do not have retaining pliers.
Also check for play on the shaft axially and horizontally , this should be minimal .
if this is more than normal then better replace them if u have any .
Follow the oil and grease plan in the manual to be safe.

If none of this helps, there must be an electrical problem,and that is for the big guns tot explain and i know they can .

regards nik



2 mal bearbeitet. Zuletzt am 08.11.22 09:50.

Thanks so much nik.

Hi again and thanks for ur great answers and tips.

We cleaned the motors as u suggested and the vibrating sound disappeared. But now it runs too slow. At 39 rpm. This is 20% slow. And could this be because this machine is sold to the US market and 60 hertz?
The motor for the turntable shows 60 hertz (picture).
I saw the extra electrick stick inside the box (picture). That is an US grounded stick.

The lady here in Norway I bought this from said the jukebox was working 15 years ago. It was her late husband's jukebox. So I wonder if he could have replaced some of the incoming electronics, or is everything US 60 hrtz parts so I have to replace all of them? Please look at my pictures.

The label on the back (picture) says 60c. Does that mean 60 circuits and thereby 60 Hrtz?
I enclose a picture of the first box the cable goes to. Does anybody know if this is original or a replaced item for Euro 50 hrtz?

The next box the cable goes to has explanations inside the lid (picture). Can this be original or can it be a replaced box(picture).

Then I enclose pictures of the 2 motors. The black one runs the carriage and says 50 Hrtz.
The silver runs the “turntable” and says 60 hertz.

Does anyone know if I need to replace all these components, or maybe just the silver motor?

Sincerely Stig from Norway.

More pictures;

hi stig ,

I am not familiar with the es2 system, but I have an E120 hit myself and the service manual says something about 50hz and 60hz.

This hit E120 can be usa connected to 117 volts on the transformer that is at the bottom of my cabinet, the 220v 50hz can also be connected.
Maybe there is information about that in the service manual?.

You may be able to check something else.

Turn the motors manually, they should run smoothly for more than 1 laps,
If that is not the case, then they are still too stiff and the speed can be influenced by a few rpm.

It could also be an expired motor capacitor in the power unit.

I indicated earlier that I don't really know an es2 system, but the motors should also run just as smoothly as an E system.

regards nik

Deine Box ist defintiv für den USA Markt gebaut worden . Normalerweise verwendet NSM 5x20 mm Sicherungen hier sind aber 6,3 x32mm verbaut außerdem steht da schon was von wegen 117V . Man kann den Trafo eventuell neu Jumpern um die Netzspannung anzupassen jedoch darf man dabei nicht vergessen die Sicherungen anzupassen . Die große Frage ist dafür halt ob die Jumper geändert wurden oder ob ein Umspanntrafo eingebaut wurde .

Beim Motor bin ich gerade überfragt dafür muss ich ggf. erst nachschauen gehen . Da war aber auch was von wegen Schaltungsänderung bei 60 Hz Betrieb . Ob aber am Laufwerk oder an der Zentrale oder beides fällt mir so Spontan nicht ein .



1 mal bearbeitet. Zuletzt am 06.12.22 20:52.

Hello stig,
you counted 45rpm in the beginning but presumably with flutter. After cleaning the motor, you got 39rpm without flutter. Maybe the previous owner increased the motor shaft diameter to adapt the 60Hz motor to 50Hz and you removed whatever he added? That could explain your observations.
Rgds Jürgen

hello stig,

As Jurgen indicates can be the case , I have seen it done and you can easily enlarge the motor shafts to test this, namely, take a shrink sleeve of the right diameter and slide it over the motor shaft (s) then heat it slightly until it has shrunk firmly.
If it does run at the right speed, then you can choose whether you want to leave it that way. Or you want to change it .

regards nico

Thanks for all ur replays on this issue.

Its been awhile since updating you, but we finally seems to have gottan ahead. I will post this also for others that have similar issues with speed and sound vibrations.

We put epoxy on the motorpin that powers the rubber wheel. We grinded the epoxy down to what seems to be the right speed for now. But of course we wonder how long the epoxy will last?

It seemed like the epoxy also helped concerning the sound vibration (fluther). Until now we never got rid of the sound vibration fully. We wonder if the motorpin was a bit crooked and cause some vibration? With the epoxy it seemed to have disappeared?

The best would be if the producer of the motor could make a motor where the speed could be adjusted. Just like the later model record players. I am sure this will not be the last time we have an issue with the accuracy of the speed.

Maybe the manufacturer also could produce a motorpin that powers the rubber wheel that could be interchanged with the electric currency (difference sizes). One for 50 hrtz and one interchangeable with moving the jukebox to a country with 60 hrtz?

Well, thanks again for all ur help and we are looking forward to your answers, and I apologize again for working slow.

We now have an issue with the right tuner channel not working. I will read some about this on the forum before I post something about this issue.

Hochactungsvoll
Stig from Bergen, Norway

Quote
Bergen Norway
We put epoxy on the motorpin that powers the rubber wheel. We grinded the epoxy down to what seems to be the right speed for now. But of course we wonder how long the epoxy will last?

It seemed like the epoxy also helped concerning the sound vibration (fluther). Until now we never got rid of the sound vibration fully.
Stig from Bergen, Norway

Hello Stig, the motor shaft has to be very precise. For example, 1/10mm eccentricity on a 5mm shaft causes around 2% flutter which is already clearly audible. When you grind down the shaft, the grinding tool/sandpaper must not move back and forth and must be moved gently towards the shaft, like on a lathe. If you hold the tool only with your fingers, it may look good but the eccentricity is still there. With this method, I could get down to less than 0.5% flutter on a self-made shaft. [forum.jukebox-world.de]

Best regards Jürgen

Thanks Jürgen,

Have u heared about anyone getting made a mecanical part with these new 3D printers? Could it be possible to calculate exactly the size of the shaft needed? And in my incident: a shaft that operate on a US motor - operating under European electric currency?

Stig B

Hello Stig,
I have no experience with 3D printing, but I doubt you will get the required precision. Maybe easier to buy a 50Hz motor or do it like Nico suggested earlier. [forum.jukebox-world.de]. The calculation is straight forward, if you measured 39rpm you need to increase the diameter of the motorshaft by a factor of 45/39.
Best regards Jürgen